Item 2119
OTHER: Aircraft -
Gyrocopter - Rotor Mounted Motor/Generator (regeneration); for Pre-rotation, Takeoff & Landing
Preamble:
REGENERATION ~ The next generation?
The near future could be an exciting time for recreational gyrocopters and recreational helicopters.
It is 'currently' a given that electrical storage is the albatross of electric drives. However, today the implementation of electric power offers one simple opportunity to bring the performance of the gyrocopter a little closer to that of the helicopter.
The possibility of in-flight charging of small electric batteries creates the opportunity of providing a short burst of power, which is in addition to that of the reciprocating engine, during a take-off and a landing. In addition, this additional short burst of power can be applied directly to the rotor.
Overview:
Selected Postings from the Rotary Wing Forum Thread ~
Electric Pre-Spin:To be cleaned up ~ later.
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Weight:
Stator:
The weight of the 23 AWG copper on the purchased stator was 1.137 Kg.
The weight of the laminates and plastic housing on the purchased stator is 2.518 Kg.
Total is 3.655 Kg [8.04 lbs].
Rotor:
The weight of the rotor is guessed to be 2.0 Kg [ 4.4 lbs].
Total:
Guessed to be 5.9 Kg [13.0 lbs]. Non-required shaft is excluded.
Information on one controller supplier: Kelly Controls LLC
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Musing on the subject of electric recreation rotorcraft; before the Europeans become the exclusive source for QUALITY and the Chinese become the exclusive source for QUANTITY. 
yes this is well known idea and I know a few instances where people who have mucked around with the latest generation washing machine electric motors (which is what that is) with some promising results because these motors actually have some nice attributes like soft start to reduce the amps for initial engagement (made for start rotating a heavy load of soaked washing in the spin cycle) can operate in both directions (wash cycle) and are pretty efficient in terms of torque vs amps required allowing them to run on aircraft electrical systems.
Not sure of the weight but probably not much more than PTO system when you include the flexi cable/connecting rods and bendix gear and it all above the CoG. But I doubt it would be powerful enough for partly powered rotor but are a promising pre-rotater non the less. I think from memory they are designed to spin up to 350 rpm for spin cycles so it should get a good speed on the rotor, as long as the disk is flat if there is any drag then the motor may struggle at faster rpm.
These motors also improve regularly and it may not be that far away of a very efficient electric motor that may be able to partly power a rotor.
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I am, naturally, interested in new prerotator development.
Your summary of weights excluded the controller, cables and battery.
I am curious as the the "shaft" you mentioned. Is the shaft used to drive the rotor through a drive of some sort, or do most projects drive the rotor head direct like the one presented by "1946" or the "Genesis" gyro offering from Aviomania in Cyprus.
If using the motor lower on the mast, the added weight of the shaft, Bendix type drive and rotor head ring gear must also be included in the total (unless a battery is pre-existing).
I have built several electric prerotators for customers using automotive starter motors and not been happy with any of them. I watch, with anticipation, progress in electric motor design.
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Tom Milton,
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Dick Wunderlich did a bunch of experiments to increase the prerotation RPM of his units.
One of the tests included lowering the blade pitch to reduce lift induced drag. Dick found you need a considerable amount of negative pitch to remove all lift. (It required machining a new hub bar to achieve the range) With the lift induced drag removed the RRPM increased, but a "smart hub" or collective system would be needed.
Since RRPM is only a component of a rolling takeoff, the overall RRPM gain would not be worth the effort and expense of a pitch adjustable hub.
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Tom Milton
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Our gyro community is driven, for the most part, by those of us that love gyroplanes and want nothing more than to see them improve on all fronts.
Having said that, it is probably obvious to most of you that a NEW low cost, light weight, inexpensive prerotator of any configuration would be an economic disaster to my (CalumetAir's)Wunderlich prerotator business.
I knew there was risk going in, I welcome progress and it is my goal to be a part of it.
Please take my comments with this in mind.
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Tom Milton
While I am very much interested in the electric pre-rotor, I think all of us "electric nuts" should always keep in mind that regardless of what "miracle" motors or controllers we come up with "YOU STILL GOT TO FEED THE PONIES". That means you got to have some real battery capacity and at the moment that is only going to come from L-ion type batteries, and $1000 or $2000 will take care of that !!! The next thing is, with all that "power" in such a small package (they are small and light) you sure don't want to short anything, that would be like sticking a match in the gas tank THERE'S GONNA BE A BIG BANG ! So an effective high power electric pre-rotor is a ways down the road and when we get there is will be quite expensive. At the moment, as an alternative I am considering a small two stroke engine mounted low on the mast or down in the fuselage (since I am a tractor style gyro) running a centrifagul clutch on the engine and a telescoping shaft up to the bendix on the head. ON a pusher this arrangement would not be really necessary other than to get the weight off of the head. At any rate what ever type you use, "if you want power out, you got to put power in".
Tom, if I would come up with anything practical, you are welcome to any and all of the design, cause I would have no desire to produce other than my own.
Tony
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JAL,
My objective is to get between 10 hp and 10Kw out of the F & P motor due to modifications. The first steps were modifying the wiring, which is easy and fun.
There is a lot of information on the Internet on working with this F & P motor, and there is also information on my web site where it is it is being developed for the backpack helicopter.
This page has a drawing of the purchased (factory reject) motor and shaft.
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Tom,
The controller that was used on the test stand weighs 1.7 lb. It should be said that the controller which is on this Web page, did not work perfectly, but the company, Kelly Controls, gives good service.
The battery weight will be dependent upon a number of variables such as, type of batteries, voltage and duration of required power, of course.
Here is some miscellaneous information on the F & P motors;
The Fisher & Paykel washing machine rotates at 300, 700, and 1000 RPM.
A couple of weeks a go I read where the F & P voltage is 330 volts. I suspect that their controller may create variably voltage for varying the washing machine's rotational speed.
The voltages used on the test-stand have been 48V and 72V, with the intention of trying 144V.
Tom, I have no interest in establish a manufacturing company. (been there - done that). My 'twilight' interest is to seek rotorcraft improvements.
If you think that an electric pre-rotor (plus power assist on takeoff and landing) by using a motor that is located concentric with the aero-rotor could be of interest, then please say so. I will be happy to support you publicly or privately.
The use of a concentric motor and aero-rotor assumes that Sikorsky's patent application finally gets rejected.
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Tony,
What about the possibility of Ultra-capacitors, if they can take a large enough charge? They could be charged by an off-craft charger and by using the recharge capability that is a part of the Kelly control.
The downside might be your Big Bang Theory.
Dave
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The motor can be an Inrunner or an Outrunner. What is required is a motor with a lot of coils, so that the torque is high and the speed is slow.
The controller produces and the motor uses a 3-phase power, which has its own varying cyclic frequencies.
The F & P controller is probably quite sophisticated, but it is not required.
The F & P motor is very simple and a lot of people buy factory rejects for homemade windmills. I've bought 3 of them.
What is needed is; the motor, the controller, a Hall effect sensor from a F & P washer parts supply company and a couple of simple things (from Kelly or elsewhere), plus a source of DC power.
A computer is connected to the controller when it is being set or changed for the specific application.
This is the information on Kelly KBS Controllers:
Download Kelly KBS Controllers User Manual V4.1
Download Kelly KBS User Configuration Program Setup V4.1
Kelly KBS Controllers Configuration Program Online Demo/Help
The copper wiring must be removed and the coils rewound with a larger gage wire, plus connecting the coils in a different parallel/serial arraignment.
The magnets might also require replacing with higher quality ones.
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Hello Dave,
I am all about improving the breed, be it mechanical, Go-Ped or concentric electric.
Many people (including Dick Wunderlich) have tried to improve the Wunderlich over the last 30 years, they usually come back to Dick's proven design.
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Tom Milton
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An electric pre-rotator is not going to be adopted if it is not better than the existing PTO types and it actually may be some way off if it ever happens.
But the fantasy is that there will be one day that a electric motor will be powerful enough and light enough that it may actually do it. It is conversation like this and the willingness to experiment with it that will one day result in the light bulb moment. If we don't toy with the idea then it will might not happen until years after it was possible.
Maybe it isn't feasible right now and a reasonable question was asked in this thread if the current system like Wunderlinch solve the problem why is that so bad and that in reality no one really has come up with any system that is demonstrably much better only variations which is a valid point.
However if these motors keep progressing the way they are they will be lighter, more powerful, more reliable, less maintenance and cheaper than any mechanical system and also will also work as a rotor break as well.
It may not be the case now but we should keep our minds open because it might not be that far away.
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http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...0%5F55%5F.html
Motors available now fairly cheap.
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Albert is the discussion creator, Pinata is the doorman, trying to stop the action!
Funny is everyone still talking to an alter ego and asking why!
An electric motor, around 10 hp will be enough for this task, it will need a special battery but it can deliver the rpms desired.
Now this is short take off, not jump we are talking about.
Flex cables and slip wheels have limited rpm and may weight more.
heron
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Why hasn't anyone asked if the motor/coil/or any magnetism from the nearness to the rotor bearing could cause any problem with having the balls of the bearing in the rotor head to become magnetized and cause a sliding of the balls and thus excessive wear of the bearing assembly? Or have I missed the idea of the design?
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Ron Iaconis
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Ron,
I don't think that the rotorhead bearing would become magnetized by the F & P motor because the large diameter of the motor keeps any stray flux remote from the bearing.
Costs:
The factory reject F & P motors can be purchased here and their cost appears to be just over $100.00.
The Hall effect sensor may not even be required. This is because Kelly offers a sensorless controller and I suspect that the gyrocopter's rotor is not subjected to fast changes of its RPM.
Just some thoughts.
Dave
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Magnetic effects? That would be a problem if high amps in DC are sent the object in the center of a field will become magnetized, just like a magnaflux machine-Need a burst of AC to degause the item, Bearing use will pull feris debris ,slivers and chips to the balls and failure will be the end result,A 6 to 8 " "ring" is a lot smaller than a normal size Magna flux coil.
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Don [hillberg]
Your point may be worthy of concern, but I suspect that in the case of the F&P motor it may not be, because;
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"What about RFI ???"
GOOD question.
Probably not inconsequential. Proper grounding and good wiring practices for avionics and ECU (for auto engines) would seem important. Keeping switching speeds of the controller discreet and not analog might also help. If I use an electrical system for pre-rotation, I will certainly 'sniff' the avionics and other pertinent stuff for spurious crap (o'scope).
Chris
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"On the subject of power would one or more comment on what the torque and rpm requirements are for existing pre-rotation.
Dave "
Thanks Dave for bringing this up...beat me. Currently working on a spreadsheet to share. However, MANY variables...will take a little time to put the math on a diet.
Perhaps others will share their numbers?? VERY preliminary results I have so far...
28', teetering, 8" constant chord, NACA 8H12, <= 200rpm:
~~96 ft.lbs.
~~3.5 HP
I know other 'stuff' is missing; but have a vacation ahead.
Chris
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A Microsoft Access database entitled 'Motor' has been developed for use with the test stand intended for developing the F & P motor. If you, or anyone, has MS Access and wants a copy of the database just say so.
It is wired for 3-phase and yes it is controlled by solid state electronics.
A Hall effect sensor, which can be seen on the motor at the top of the picture, reads the motor's position and then tells that position to the control electronics.
This is the wiring diagram for the high power section of the controller.
The 6 power transistors [Q1, etc.] are told by the control electronics, using [PWM - Pulse Width Modulation], when to send a positive or a negative power to each of the motor's 3 phases, as the motor turns.
The pulse widths have a much faster [On - Off] switching rate then the rate of switching the phases. The duration of the [On] time of these pulses sets the amount of electricity that is to be passed to the approprate phases on the motor. More [On] time means more power which means more torque and/or more speed.
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Tony this is the system and the weight (picture weight in lbs.) including batteries and all wires / hardware to install it.
this system gives 145 static RRPM on 23' Dragon wings and 155 RRPM on untwisted blades and accelerates the rotor during ground run until 350 RRPM. The first 10 systems we sent out had no electronic protections and some were damaged by overworking them.. there is a procedure that needs to be kept and no problems will occur ( we still have the prototype on our Genesis solo.)
The latest version with similar performance has overhead, over Amp and governor protections.
The Bigger one we are testing now takes the 23' Dragon wing to ~200 rpm and accelerates them during ground run up to 300 RRPM. again with all the protections
One is going to be installed on our 2 seater and be tested with 28' rotors.
http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=88588&d=1324806319
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Tony,
The following is an attempt to answer your questions.
Quote:
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I assume all that would be needed to theoretically design a system such as is used here, one must add the necessary circuits to create a A.C. frequency (from DC) of the desired rate. It would appear that the electronics needed to "create" this application will not necessarily be expensive or complicated or heavy. |
All of the circuits, both power and electronic, are in this
KBS72121,50A,24-72V Motor Speed Controller. This is the one that we used on the test stand but many other sizes are available. This Motor Speed Controller even picks up the overheat sensor on the Hall effect device.Quote:
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In fact one might even include automatic progressive speed control. Like, just trigger the pre-rotor, let it accelerate to a pre-set speed and then go. |
Control interfaces for the pilot are available here.
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I can immediately see where the electronic guru's in our midst are about to go center stage with some "custom" experimental circuitry for this type of motor. |
This can be done later, if desired. 'Theoretically', this arrangement should provide; rotor assisted short-field takeoff and landing, plus in-flight electrical storage regeneration, as it is.
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At the moment I see this as still a "non-head" mounted system to get the best results ??? |
You might be correct, but I suspect that the future will say otherwise. Those, such as Nicolis, are probably in the best position to play with and evaluate this potential pre-rotor, which uses electrical speed reduction.
Perhaps later on, one or two of these hollow-center motors might also be located around the tail boom of
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Hi Dave
It is clear that you have already gone a "long way down this road" and have a good understanding of this technology. Your sharing it with us here on the forum is MOST APPRECIATED !! This is especially true for me as my gyro is a tractor style and I cannot with any practical application use a mechanical drive from the engine up to the rotor without having some kind of shaft going up in front of my face, and that is OUT !! So I am left with either electrical, hydraulic, or a "goped " arrangement. All have been under consideration, however with this new style of motor and so much of the necessary components available " off the shelf" and at real reasonable prices the electric option is in the lead at the moment. It would seem that at the moment the KELLY controler and accessories are a hands down winner, and even if you go with the "expensive" model it is still only in the $200 range. I am not sure if the "12 volt" basic source will be a "crippling" factor or not. Most of our basic engine systems use 12 volt BUT---that can be changed if necessary, like larger aircraft systems use 24 volt so this would not be a major road block if it is going to allow such a powerful and simple system as this to be used. I personally am not interested in "jump take off" but rather a good safe short field take off of 300 to 500 ft with a good climb rate for clearing "stuff" at the end of the field.
Looking forward to many more of your post on this technology. Thanks again for your contributions. It looks like Nicolas has already grabbed the ball and running with it on his system. Hope to see much more of the application, I think with this technology and Lithium batteries ( yes I know they are expensive) we are almost to that goal of the 300 to 500 feet take off.
Tony
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Nicolas,
AviomaniaIt is interesting to see that you are already applying direct power-assist to the rotor during take-off and initial climb.
Aviomania, Booster Prerotator Testing.
It appears that the difference between your 'construction' and my 'contemplation' is primarily the use of an engine mounted generator versus a rotor mounted motor/generator, for on-board recharging the small electrical storage device (battery etc.)
On the surface it seems that future increases of the direct power to the rotor can only enhance the attractiveness of gyrocopters. However, a concern is that the application of mechanical power to the rotor causes a yaw of the fuselage. Also, if the electrical storage device is recharge by the electric motor/generator (regeneration) it too will cause a yaw, smaller but in the opposite direction.
Dave
Regeneration:
Potential Concerns:
Outside Material:
Introduction Page | SynchroLite Home Page | Electrotor Home Page | UniCopter Home Page | Nemesis Home Page | AeroVantage Home Page:
First posted: January 9, 2012 ~ Last Revised: Tuesday, March 31, 2012
The above utility invention is openly and publicly disclosed on the Internet to negate an entity from patenting it, to the exclusion of all others whom may wish to use it. ~ Reference patent law 35 U.S.C. 102 A person shall be entitled to a patent unless - (a) the invention was known ... by others in this country, ..., before the invention thereof by the applicant for patent.
